luzula | Frannie: the little black dress of due South femslash?

Crossposts: http://luzula.livejournal.com/118623.html

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Frannie: the little black dress of due South femslash?

So I was thinking about due South femslash, and it struck me that basically all the femslash pairings are with Frannie. Here are the statistics for the sum total of the (really quite few) due South femslash fics posted at the AO3 and the DSA, split up by pairing (and not including crossovers):

Frannie/Elaine - 25
Frannie/Thatcher - 10
Frannie/Maggie - 8 (half of which were written by me *g*)
Frannie/Stella - 7
Frannie/Victoria - 1 (not actually posted, but I know someone had a long WIP with that pairing, so I'm including it)
Frannie/Irene Zuko - 1 (let me link to that, because it is very very good and I just discovered it)
Frannie/OFC - 1 (I wrote that one!)
Maggie/Victoria - 1 (hey, I wrote that one, too!)
Stella/Mackenzie King - 1

So basically Frannie is in all of them except two. What is the deal with that? Not that I'm complaining--I love Frannie! But why is no one writing, say, Thatcher/Stella?

Is it because Frannie seems more likely to be lesbian/bisexual? Or because she's people's favorite female character? Or because she's hot? Or because people feel she deserves some loving? Or because she has more onscreen time with other female characters? Hmmm. ETA: I just thought of this: maybe people dislike the canonical one-sided Frannie/Fraser and write femslash as a reaction?

ETA2: Also, the image of Frannie actually in a small black dress is a very nice one. : )

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I don't think it's the idea that Frannie's potential to be a character whose sexuality is more fluid is larger than the rest of the female cast. Yes, she's hot and she does appear in a lot more episodes than any other woman in dS (from the pilot on, even!)

To me, it seemed like the show attempted to positioned her in the 'bimbo/ditzy/airhead' role. But she pushed against it via charm and smarts. Sure, she's boy-crazy (or, better said, Fraser-crazy), but she doesn't pine away, she doesn't stop living her life just because Fraser is keeping her at arms' length. Like she tells Vecchio during that one episode when she pursues Fraser hard, she's going after what she wants. It doesn't mean she'll get it (or, in this case, she might not end up with Fraser), but that doesn't mean she's not going to try. I really respect that in a character--especially a female one and particularly in such a male-centric show such as dS.

After all, what's her background? Presumably the baby of the Vecchio family, is once-divorced, living with her family and very slowly making her way through community college. It's not til the last season that you get these glimpses of her getting ideas about working with the CPD.

I'm not saying she's perfect--she's impulsive, stubborn and (to a certain extent) lacks a certain degree of maturity (though, really, the show's whimsical side handwaved a lot of the characters' personalities). One of my biggest peeves with the show was that TPTB didn't know how to get her character to develop once the urge to "land Fraser" was removed. (I'm thinking about the unexplored possibility of her dating Turnbull, if you're going for non-Fraser het!pairings OR the interrogation scene during MotB where she was fierce and AWESOME, for example.)

OTOH, unlike Thatcher (whom the show REALLY didn't know what to do with), Stella (who was shown as too assertive to the point of be seen as unlikable to some people), Victoria (no explanation needed here), Irene Zuko (who became a martyr of sorts), Angie (we only saw glimpses of her), Mackenzie King (ditto) and Maggie (a one-ep appearance), Frannie's "specialness" doesn't come from her being involved in law enforcement OR because she had a romance with any of the male leads. She's "just" an Italian-American girl building a life for herself. The only other dS female character that is just as awesome (without having to make any concessions to her storyline) is Elaine. FTR, I like Elaine (she's intelligent and warm), but I will always love Frannie.

FWIW, she did have insane amounts of chemistry with everyone. I think it's got to do with her personality (vivid, open, cunning--without being evil--and friendly) as well as with the hotness of one Ramona Milano. >:)

Not for nothing, the only two dS WIPs I would ever consider finishing are Frannie-centric ones. Better said, every so often I add words to both/either fics. However, at this point in my fannish life, both fics are incredibly self-indulgent and I really doubt anyone in dS would be interested in reading them. *shrug*

In short, \Frannie/!

Edited (Had to clarify something. Sorry for the multiple edits.) 2012-07-18 22:05 (UTC)

Oh, awesome, you are writing the meta for me. \o/ Also, I love your Frannie icon.

Yeah, I love her going after what she wants, too--that's one of my favorite things about her. And you're also right about her having chemistry with people.

What are your Frannie WIP:s about? Just curious... (Also, I loved your Frannie-in-space fic.)

LOL. Frannie's the one dS character I will always have a soft spot for. :P Frannie icon was made for me by

podfic_lover via the Snowflake Challenge. :D!

One of the WIPs is the sequel to the Frannie-in-space fic. It's a due South/Killjoys xover (with a dash of Inception). I have a wall that's partially covered with index cards where I outlined the story. I might actually finish and (someday) post that one? Though the dS factor is reduced in account of the Killjoys. I rather not talk about the other one except to say that

akamine_chan read the first 7k words about two years ago and occasionally pokes me about it to this day. (The draft as it stands is at 23k right now.)

Edited (Had to fix my grammar. /o\) 2012-07-18 22:33 (UTC)

Firstly I want to say <3 <3 <3 for your coming up with this meta!!!

For me "the Frannie factor" is the combination of her intrinsic hotness combined with my own sense that she just wouldn't turn down LOVE, regardless of gender.

Brain 'splodes with the thought of your Maggie/Victoria! Please link me! (And oh do I wish I could see that "someone's Frannie/Victoria WIP".)

she just wouldn't turn down LOVE

*nods* Yeah, that's a good point. And she is definitely hot!

Here is the Maggie/Victoria. : )

What awesome stats! Yay for putting this together!!

Statistics are very satisfying! : )

fascinating.

i had a hard time with frannie at first watching of canon, and actually asked people in a meta to explain her to me. that helped a lot.

she is one of the primarily featured female characters, and is more approachable than thatcher, which explains her slashability, i think.

i adored maggie and her actress and would be prone to slash her, but i see how frannie works.

you do know salieri's story Real Boys? Which is RayK/Fraser, but Frannie has a GREAT and AWESOME part in this SF AU.

thanks for the thinky.

Yeah, I love Frannie, but sometimes it's in spite of canon rather than because of it.

And yes, I love Real Boys!

*points upward* What Luce said. She's a fun and likeable and identifiable character whose main plot function - chasing Fraser - is really embarrassment-squicky. I think that puts a lot of people off wanting to ship her with another guy.

Something I've noticed in many fandoms is the gender gap in how characters in unrequited love/lust for another character are regarded by viewers. Guys in love with a girl who's uninterested get tons of sympathy, even if they're acting like twits or even being abusive, and the object of their affections gets criticized for being mean to him. Girls who show too much interest in a guy, though, tend to make audiences uncomfortable - they're seen as making fools of themselves, being too aggressive/slutty/persistent. Sometimes this is the plot's intention - ha ha, look at that dumb girl, look at the guy (who should obviously be the aggressor) being chased - but it gets old as a joke, and it's a pretty sexist and mean-spirited one at heart. I think it appeals more to men because it's a power fantasy, but women are more likely to identify with the woman being embarrassed, and either feel bad for her (and want her to succeed/find love somehow) or dislike her for being foolish/weak and making them uncomfortable (and just want her off their screen).

From what I understand, way back in the day when the show was first airing there were lots of Frannie/Fraser shippers, to the extent that it was the OTP and slashers were the exception. But obviously the landscape has changed. Obviously she's someone who really does want to find love, so if you like her as a character you're likely to want to write the story where she does. But if you're a slasher, as so much of the fandom is now, you're likely already shipping Fraser with someone(s) - and the two main candidates for that either are related to her or used to pretend to be, so an OT3 with her would be kind of incesty. And even if you aren't a slasher, Fraser is awkward after all those years. I've read some good Frannie/Welsh, but he is awfully old for her; ditto some very cute Frannie/Turnbull, but Turnbull is ... I've never been entirely convinced he's anatomically correct.

Making Frannie girl-crazy instead of boy-crazy bypasses nearly all the sexism and, as a plus, makes her shippable with lots of attractive ladies you might want to see happy.

...And now, I think I want fic with Frannie, in a little black dress, hooking up with Mackenzie King. Does this exist? And if not, why not?

Edited 2012-07-19 06:10 (UTC)

And now, I think I want fic with Frannie, in a little black dress, hooking up with Mackenzie King. Does this exist? And if not, why not?

Okay, this immediately started writing itself in my mind. Which is definitely not a bad thing! Except that I suspect it's just another procrastination tactic (like this post itself, in fact) to avoid writing my Midsummer fic, which really needs to be written. *bangs head against wall* Well, I'll just note it down on my fic idea list.

Also, you make some really good points about Frannie pairing possibilities! I've always been kind of put off by Frannie/Welsh, not just because of the age difference, but mostly because he's her boss.

but Turnbull is ... I've never been entirely convinced he's anatomically correct.

*snorfles* You just made me laugh out loud.

Which McKenzie King, out of interest? In terms of which actress? I like the idea of Frannie and blonde King, because they would look so cute together.

Personally, I prefer the second one! She's just more...vivacious?

Oh man, now I want to know why there's no Thatcher/Stella. Competence, UNF

I know, right? I mean, they could meet over a court case where a Canadian citizen is involved, and maybe they're on opposite sides of the case, so they strike sparks and have a sort of verbal battle, but then they start to respect each other's competence and, well, it goes on from there. *notes down in fic idea list*

<333

I hope it comes to pass :D

Because their unholy children would hatch in their multitudes, come scuttling out of the ubiquituous closet in the middle of the night and eat the dS 'verse alive. That's why!

Well I mean, no one said they had to have kids.

It's probably just as well, Uncle Ray Kowalski would be a terrifying influence and would encourage the kid to have experimental hair too.

Bwhaha! Now we have to ask Look Turtles! to do a nightmare dystopian version of her cartoons in which punk spiders take over the world...

I wonder which Mom they would take after? Would they be terrifying lawyers, or would they wear the RCMP uniform? Hmmm...

Legal staff for the RCMP, obvs.

I think others have covered why Frannie is the most popular female character (combination of great acting, and charisma from the actress, plus the fact that she's in the show from the very beginning.) The idea of Thatcher and Stella makes a horrible kind of sense, but I'm not sure I would want to read about them together, somehow I just thought about the coupling of spiders. Although either one of them can be written with a great deal of sympathy, I feel together the worst of their ambitiousness and hardness would come out. It gives me the heeby jeebies!

The Victoria/Maggie story linked to above is extremely good... the Frannie/Irene would be perfect, apart from one big problem in terms of timeline, which queers the deal for me. I'm sure there's a bigger gap in Frannie and Ray's age than this story would suggest. And that's actually kind of a big thing, because if Ray's too much older than Irene, then he's a bit of a creep. He's obviously not meant to be much older than her though in this fic, but it's hard to tell. And if he's eighteen or nineteen then he shouldn't be carrying on with sixteen year old girls anyway. So, that does sort of spoil it for me.

More Victoria/Maggie, would be good. I've got a plot in my head for that now, but whether I'll ever get round to writing it, I don't know.

Edited 2012-07-19 17:48 (UTC)

The idea of Thatcher and Stella makes a horrible kind of sense, but I'm not sure I would want to read about them together, somehow I just thought about the coupling of spiders. Although either one of them can be written with a great deal of sympathy, I feel together the worst of their ambitiousness and hardness would come out. It gives me the heeby jeebies!

I don't agree? I mean, they can be written as being hard, I suppose, but I don't think they necessarily are, and I think they could be good together. Coupling of spiders, er, what? I now feel the urge to write it to prove the point.

Yeah, I think Ray is older than Frannie, too, but I glossed over that in order to enjoy the story.

I've got a plot in my head for that now, but whether I'll ever get round to writing it, I don't know.

My plot for it (besides the one-shot story I wrote) was always that Victoria would come back and Maggie would know that Fraser couldn't really handle it, so being a protective sister she'd go after Victoria to bring her in instead. And then complications would ensue. What's your plot idea?

It's not Stella so much who I would see as a problem (or potential spider queen) as Thatcher, who I really really want to smack upside the head... at least as she is written in later episodes. But I'd love to see you rise to the challenge! I've written a sympathetic Stella a couple of times, and actually quite like her, in all her aspects, including ball breaker. Perhaps it's a subliminal thing, and it's just because the writers called her after another Margaret Thatcher who gives me the screaming abjabs. But go for it, I'd love to see what you do with that pairing.

My idea and yours aren't that disimilar, actually. I was thinking that Victoria, being the obsessive harridan that she is, discovers that Fraser has a life, and decides to try and wreck it again. So she goes gunning for Ray (maybe both Rays). What she doesn't realise is that Maggie has put two and two together, and is gunning for her.

Oh, okay. Yeah, I totally get your antipathy towards the RL Thatcher you're referring to, but I've managed to dissociate dS Thatcher completely from her in my head. And yes, she's unevenly written, especially in the later episodes, and you have to kind of pick and choose when thinking about her character.

The thing about Maggie is that I think in some ways she's more ruthless and less bound by principles than Fraser. Maybe because she has to work to overcome the image of being a blond beautiful woman and appearing less dangerous than a big muscled man? So I think it could be interesting to see her in any casefic, actually.

That's an absolutely fascinating insight into Maggie... I'd love to do something from her pov. Now you've got me hooked on another story! I love writing casefic, though sometimes it's bleeding difficult. Okay, when I've got my BB out of the way, and caught up on some of my other projects (oh Lord, killing Caroline) there is a real danger that Maggie is going to take over my brain.

Actually, strike that... your version of Maggie is already coming to life in my head. She was raised by a frontier woman, we know she's tough as nails... I like the idea of her being more feral than we'd thought.

I wrote a fairly long Maggie casefic once (it's one of my Maggie/Frannie stories) but the fic had a pretty light tone, so there was no room for her more fierce aspects. I'd love to see them, though!

I love writing casefic, though sometimes it's bleeding difficult.

Really? You make it seem effortless.

Ooh, could I have a link to the Maggie casefic? (rubs hands together gleefully.)

Here it is! There's one longer fic and three short little snippets as prequel and sequels.

awesome post, Luzula! if I wasn't tapping this out on my phone I'd link you to a discussion about Stella/Meg that china_shop and I had. we decided they'd be an awesome power couple.

Yeah, it sparked some great discussion! And I'd love it if you linked me later.

Found it!

Sock_Marionette pointed out that the best way to get Stella/Meg is to smoosh them together with Frannie! ♥

Edited 2012-07-27 01:21 (UTC)

Thanks! Stella/Meg/Frannie, huh? *ponders*

I'm specifically NOT reading all the comments on this thread, because I'm in the middle of working on a Frannie/Stella story, and I don't want to get analysis paralysis from reading too much about Meta Frannie.

But! and with! the warning that I haven't read all the comments (although I will), I'll say:

1) Frannie is really, really hot.

2) Frannie was underserved by the writers; when watching some of the episodes, I cringe on Ramona Milano's behalf for some of the dialogue/business she had to force out of her mouth/perform in other ways, solely in service to some very sexist jokes.

3) I'm not sure, but it seems like we viewers/textual poachers have the most information about Frannie, as compared to the other canon female characters. So, as I writer, I feel about Frannie/Whomever kind of the same way as I do about Kowalski/Vecchio. We have a lot of information about Kowalski and Vecchio as individuals, and very little information about their interpersonal dynamic from the show. So there's a window of opportunity that was opened briefly and allowed writers to make up their own dynamic: sweet, funny, antogonistic, violent, jealous, or whatever.

In conclusion: I have no idea what I'm talking about and once I wrestle my Frannnie/Stella story to the ground, I will dedicate it to you for opening this dialogue.

Sock Marionette

I'm guessing that really doesn't help, but I'm okay with being the

1) Yes, she is!

2) Oh, I agree. That bit with the German Fraser-look-alike always makes me wince so hard, for example.

3) Good point! I guess that's also how it works when people write crossovers--they take characters they know a lot about individually, and put them together.

And thanks again for the story! \o/

(deleted comment)

I dunno, I can picture Stella and Thatcher meeting easily? Like, a Canadian citizen could be mixed up in one of Stella's lawsuits and Thatcher would get involved. I mean, Elaine, Frannie, Thatcher, Maggie and Stella all work in law enforcement (or in Stella's case, as a lawyer) and could thus meet professionally.

But yeah, you're right that Frannie does come off as being social and open.

When I first got into Due South, someone (I think it was

misspamela) ran a Get Frannie Laid challenge. That doesn't answer any of your questions, but it did make me think of it. (I wrote Frannie/Stella for it.)

I suspect it's just that there's so little femslash at all, that what there is is mostly about the most obvious pairings/characters.

ETA: I just thought of this: maybe people dislike the canonical one-sided Frannie/Fraser and write femslash as a reaction?

And this. :-)

Ha, I actually have your Frannie/Stella fic open in a tab, since I found it while making the statistics for the post.

And yeah, Frannie chasing after Fraser does make one want to write fix-it fic.

Great meta!

I think Thatcher/Stella could work very well. After all they are both ambitious, competent women who made it in male-dominated professions. I'm sure they have lots of stuff to bond about.

In my head I can see Elaine/Stella too, I'm sure there would be sparks.

Edited 2012-07-20 13:22 (UTC)

Thanks! There are lots of interesting comments on the DW post (ha, other people wrote the meta for me!)

Yeah, I think Stella and Thatcher would have a lot in common, too.

Elaine/Stella, hmm. Yeah, it might work. Although I'm sure Stella would think, oh my God, I married another cop...although of course Elaine doesn't have Ray's emotional volatility.

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Frannie: the little black dress of due South femslash?

I haz opinions on Frannie? \o?

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(posted in wrong place originally, sorry)

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I'm hesitant!

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