SF books with long-lived humans/aliens?

[luzula]

Can you think of SF books where there are long-lived humans/aliens who by reason of their long lives are better at overcoming the problems of short-term thinking? Problems I'm thinking of are things like "let's go on hunting this species for food, even though if we do, it'll go extinct", or "let's go on burning fossil fuels, even though if we do, it'll wreck the climate".

I guess another question is whether longer lives would necessarily make us wiser that way...we already do have long lives compared to lots of other organisms. No matter how long you make it (500 years?) there would still probably be even longer-term problems that this society would take a short-term approach to, on their terms. And even if you have a long life, you might still discount the future as opposed to the present.

KSR's Mars books do have lots of interesting thoughts about how a longer life changes you personally, and also changes society.

Comments

[philomytha]

Isn't this a thing in some of Asimov's books? It's been many years since I read them, but IIRC there's a contrast between the long-lived Spacers and the short-lived Earthers, though I think the balance is more the other way, showing the negative effects of long life. But as I say it's a very long time since I read them so I may be misremembering.

[luzula]

*goes to look at plot summary of Caves of Steel*

It's been a long time since I read it, too...

Oh, you're right! A portion of the long-lived Spacers think their culture is stagnating, and want to team up with the Earthers, and the solution to this "stagnation" is to be further expansion into the galaxy...

[james]

I've read stuff with long-lived characters, but none where the author really showed them being good at long-range planning/awareness.

But now I want to read it. :-)

[luzula]

I guess Tolkien's elves kind of are good at long-range planning/awareness, actually?

[skygiants]

I feel like this miiiight be an element of Czerneda's Species Imperative trilogy but I could absolutely be making it up, it's been a minute since I read them. (But I'm intending to reread soon, so will report back!)

[luzula]

I read the first of those years ago, but don't remember much of it, honestly. But do report back if you stumble on anything interesting!

[chestnut_pod]

What immediately springs to mind for me is Le Guin's Ekumen, where it's not exactly long life, but the effects of relativity that permit the long-term thinking that appears in, say, The Word For World Is Forest, Left Hand, and others of the Hainish books. It sometimes feels kind of colonial, now I think of it, when there are less long-lived planets being managed in this way. I think there's a paper in there *muses*

You already mentioned Kim Stanley Robinson, but that concept also appears in a specifically ecological context in 2312 with Swan Er Hong, the MC. (Not that I exactly recommend that book on its merits, but there it is.)

Hm, also The Sparrow by Mary Doria Russell -- really leans into those colonial dynamics, that one!

And then the exact opposite of this is The Silmarillion :p

[luzula]

Oh, that's true, the Ekumen do get the long-term perspective another way. I remember a bit in LHoD about ideas and people being basically the only things practicable to send over such long distances, and trade in bulk goods, and war over resources, not being reasonable. But that's more about distance tempering human aggression, not time.

It sometimes feels kind of colonial, now I think of it, when there are less long-lived planets being managed in this way.

In what way? Aren't all the people basically the same species but with variations, and have equally long lives? Or do you mean how far/near they are to other planets, and the technology level they have?

[chestnut_pod]

You’re right, clumsy wording on my part: the level of technology combined with the managerial attitude spawned by the time dilation of great distance. I’m thinking specifically of The Word for World is Forest and Rocannon’s World, and to a lesser extent in Left Hand, though I’m sure one could find other examples. The narrative and main characters show such Ekumenical disdain for the indigenous populations and it really communicates the sense that if they would only allow themselves to be bettered by Ekumenical knowledge and intellect they’d soon see how to manage their own resources better. (The sexual politics in RW, warring in Left Hand, actual forest husbandry in TWFWIF.)

[luzula]

Hmm. But in TWFWIF, people from the Ekumen (Hain and Tau Ceti) are horrified by the indigenous populations being held as workers by the colonizers from Earth. And it ends by the Ekumen ruling that everyone from Earth has to leave and the planet will be left alone permanently, except for a few people sometimes coming to communicate with them, if that's okay. Yes, I had to check in the book, it's years since I read it...can't find a quote about the Ekumen having better forest management than the indigenous population, do you have one? I mean, the whole book is basically a pretty heavy-handed "colonialism is bad" parable.

In LHoD, I do think there's a sense that Gethen can learn from the Ekumen, but that Gethen also has things to teach the Ekumen (mind speech). War is a very new thing on Gethen, and was averted and didn't actually take place. And Gethen is explicitly stable when it comes to technology and resources, and only very carefully introduces new technologies when they're sure of the consequences.

Not saying there is nothing to your argument, but I don't think I wholly agree! : )

[chestnut_pod]

Totally fair! I think that Le Guin's 20th century idea of anthropology tends to come through in her books from the 60s and 70s and make me, as a person inhabiting weird anthro/soc spaces academically, uncomfortable and less likely to cut her slack in other places. As for LHoD, heavy Cold War parable aside, I am thinking of the general idea that Gethen has a dictatorship and a mad king and some Daoist prophets in a balance that has been stable, but is rapidly destabilizing at least in part due to climate change, and the Ekumen offers some hope of redress even as it is itself a destabilizing force.

[luzula]

I think that Le Guin's 20th century idea of anthropology tends to come through in her books from the 60s and 70s and make me, as a person inhabiting weird anthro/soc spaces academically, uncomfortable and less likely to cut her slack in other places.

That's fair, you probably have different perspectives here! And it's been a while since I read some of her 60's/70's books. Do tell me if you end up writing that paper. : )

As for Gethen, it's definitely in a period of change in the book, partly because of internal factors, but also because of Genly, and it's not clear what the consequences of the contact with the Ekumen will ultimately be. Hmm, where's the climate change, though? I remember Gethen as being in a stable ice age.

[chestnut_pod]

This took some digging through my hardcopy, but I did find it, in the beginning of the section comprised of Estraven’s notes. He speaks of the volcanoes creating a greenhouse effect and driving the retreat of the ice, visible before them in the form of a withdrawing glacier. But it’s framed in a more long-term way than I had remembered. It was also quite a haunting passage to read from our seat in 2020, as they speak of average temperature rise and how it is all just a theory no one can prove, “The Snow of Ignorance yet untrodden” — would that it were better trod fifty years ago or now!

In any case, I think we may have talked me into yet another reread of Left Hand. The whole section that passes over the ice to Karhide is so stunning.

[luzula]

Oh, interesting!

In any case, I think we may have talked me into yet another reread of Left Hand. The whole section that passes over the ice to Karhide is so stunning.

Sounds like a good decision. : ) I love that book. Actually, there's an audiobook of it which is also one of my favorite audiobooks ever, it's narrated by someone called Ruth Stokesberry and seems like it was on tape first. I can't find it for sale online and someone shared it with me as mp3's a long time ago. Would be happy to share if you want to try it out.

[chestnut_pod]

Oh, absolutely! Yes please, I’d love to try it, and thanks very much.

[hyarrowen]

Doris Lessing, Shikasta and follow-ups. That concentrates more on the fall of those civilisations, though; they only realise in retrospect that the "golden age" was better.

I was going to say Numenor, but tbh they were pretty short-sighted given their longevity. Like, cutting down all the forests in Numenor, then in Eriador. The irl British were were better at that, planting oaks for shipbuilding a couple of centuries down the line.

John Wyndham's "Trouble with Lichen" looks at the effect of an anti-ageing drug, and how that might change society, particularly women's roles.

Michael Scott Rohan's duergar in the Winter of the World series are portrayed as wise, technically advanced and able to withstand an Ice Age much better than modern humans. But you don't get much detail on that.

None of those are quite what you want, sorry!

[luzula]

Thanks! : )

It's been forever since I read those Lessing books...

I was going to say Numenor, but tbh they were pretty short-sighted given their longevity. Like, cutting down all the forests in Numenor, then in Eriador. The irl British were were better at that, planting oaks for shipbuilding a couple of centuries down the line.

The elves do have long lives and are not short-sighted, though. : )

Re: planting oaks, Sweden too! I remember actually some forester recently sent a message to the Navy, saying, "your oaks are now ready!". I guess it was partly a publicity thing, but also literally true that it was a commission from hundreds of years ago.

[chestnut_pod]

Maybe it’s only Finwë’s extended family who are so aggressively shortsighted! Although I suppose after two Ages of the World the ones who are left do learn to have a bit of perspective.

That’s very cool about the forester surviving all those hundreds of years — the thought of the quality of record-keeping required is delightful!

[luzula]

Hee, yeah, the Fëanorians do make bad decisions! I guess I was thinking more along the lines of the elves having a stable population and not depleting their resource base, which they don't seem to have a problem with.

[chestnut_pod]

That’s very true! Aman seems to spring eternal.

[hyarrowen]

The elves do have long lives and are not short-sighted, though. : )

They're also complete idiots on occasion... I've thought since, the Dwarves are long-lived and seem to have their shit together. But again, you don't see much of them or of how it affects their thinking. And also, to a lesser extent, the hobbits.

Re: planting oaks, Sweden too! I remember actually some forester recently sent a message to the Navy, saying, "your oaks are now ready!". I guess it was partly a publicity thing, but also literally true that it was a commission from hundreds of years ago.

How lovely! I hope they're put to good use. Just goes to show that the Numenoreans were also idiots, since us ordinary types have been thinking centuries ahead for a long time (maybe not so much now.)

[luzula]

You're right, some of the elves do make terrible decisions! I guess I was thinking more along the lines of the elves having a stable population and not depleting their resource base, which they don't seem to have a problem with.

Hmm, I can't remember the lifespan of the Dwarves, but I guess they're not immortal like elves? According to a wiki: about 300 years.

[hyarrowen]

Two or three centuries, mostly. I can only think of one really bad decision they ever made, and that was to go after the Silmarils. In terms of resource depletion, however, they certainly delved too deeply in Moria.

The Ainur seem to manage Aman's ecosytem pretty well, whatever one might think of their decision-making in other respects.

[starshipfox]

Some of the stories about generation ships deal with this idea to an extent: for example, "The Dazzle of Day" by Molly Gloss, the novella "The Birthday of the World" by Ursula Le Guin, and "Marrow" by Robert Reed. However, I don't think any of those quite capture the idea of longevity leading to overcoming short-term thinking in quite the way you describe. It's an interesting concept!

[luzula]

Oh, I do like "The Dazzle of Day", and everything else Molly Gloss has written!

Yeah, generation ships are something else, I think: that's a more sharply constrained world where you don't have as much leeway for things to go wrong...