SF books with long-lived humans/aliens?

[luzula]

Can you think of SF books where there are long-lived humans/aliens who by reason of their long lives are better at overcoming the problems of short-term thinking? Problems I'm thinking of are things like "let's go on hunting this species for food, even though if we do, it'll go extinct", or "let's go on burning fossil fuels, even though if we do, it'll wreck the climate".

I guess another question is whether longer lives would necessarily make us wiser that way...we already do have long lives compared to lots of other organisms. No matter how long you make it (500 years?) there would still probably be even longer-term problems that this society would take a short-term approach to, on their terms. And even if you have a long life, you might still discount the future as opposed to the present.

KSR's Mars books do have lots of interesting thoughts about how a longer life changes you personally, and also changes society.

Comments

[luzula]

Oh, that's true, the Ekumen do get the long-term perspective another way. I remember a bit in LHoD about ideas and people being basically the only things practicable to send over such long distances, and trade in bulk goods, and war over resources, not being reasonable. But that's more about distance tempering human aggression, not time.

It sometimes feels kind of colonial, now I think of it, when there are less long-lived planets being managed in this way.

In what way? Aren't all the people basically the same species but with variations, and have equally long lives? Or do you mean how far/near they are to other planets, and the technology level they have?

[chestnut_pod]

You’re right, clumsy wording on my part: the level of technology combined with the managerial attitude spawned by the time dilation of great distance. I’m thinking specifically of The Word for World is Forest and Rocannon’s World, and to a lesser extent in Left Hand, though I’m sure one could find other examples. The narrative and main characters show such Ekumenical disdain for the indigenous populations and it really communicates the sense that if they would only allow themselves to be bettered by Ekumenical knowledge and intellect they’d soon see how to manage their own resources better. (The sexual politics in RW, warring in Left Hand, actual forest husbandry in TWFWIF.)

[luzula]

Hmm. But in TWFWIF, people from the Ekumen (Hain and Tau Ceti) are horrified by the indigenous populations being held as workers by the colonizers from Earth. And it ends by the Ekumen ruling that everyone from Earth has to leave and the planet will be left alone permanently, except for a few people sometimes coming to communicate with them, if that's okay. Yes, I had to check in the book, it's years since I read it...can't find a quote about the Ekumen having better forest management than the indigenous population, do you have one? I mean, the whole book is basically a pretty heavy-handed "colonialism is bad" parable.

In LHoD, I do think there's a sense that Gethen can learn from the Ekumen, but that Gethen also has things to teach the Ekumen (mind speech). War is a very new thing on Gethen, and was averted and didn't actually take place. And Gethen is explicitly stable when it comes to technology and resources, and only very carefully introduces new technologies when they're sure of the consequences.

Not saying there is nothing to your argument, but I don't think I wholly agree! : )

[chestnut_pod]

Totally fair! I think that Le Guin's 20th century idea of anthropology tends to come through in her books from the 60s and 70s and make me, as a person inhabiting weird anthro/soc spaces academically, uncomfortable and less likely to cut her slack in other places. As for LHoD, heavy Cold War parable aside, I am thinking of the general idea that Gethen has a dictatorship and a mad king and some Daoist prophets in a balance that has been stable, but is rapidly destabilizing at least in part due to climate change, and the Ekumen offers some hope of redress even as it is itself a destabilizing force.

[luzula]

I think that Le Guin's 20th century idea of anthropology tends to come through in her books from the 60s and 70s and make me, as a person inhabiting weird anthro/soc spaces academically, uncomfortable and less likely to cut her slack in other places.

That's fair, you probably have different perspectives here! And it's been a while since I read some of her 60's/70's books. Do tell me if you end up writing that paper. : )

As for Gethen, it's definitely in a period of change in the book, partly because of internal factors, but also because of Genly, and it's not clear what the consequences of the contact with the Ekumen will ultimately be. Hmm, where's the climate change, though? I remember Gethen as being in a stable ice age.

[chestnut_pod]

This took some digging through my hardcopy, but I did find it, in the beginning of the section comprised of Estraven’s notes. He speaks of the volcanoes creating a greenhouse effect and driving the retreat of the ice, visible before them in the form of a withdrawing glacier. But it’s framed in a more long-term way than I had remembered. It was also quite a haunting passage to read from our seat in 2020, as they speak of average temperature rise and how it is all just a theory no one can prove, “The Snow of Ignorance yet untrodden” — would that it were better trod fifty years ago or now!

In any case, I think we may have talked me into yet another reread of Left Hand. The whole section that passes over the ice to Karhide is so stunning.

[luzula]

Oh, interesting!

In any case, I think we may have talked me into yet another reread of Left Hand. The whole section that passes over the ice to Karhide is so stunning.

Sounds like a good decision. : ) I love that book. Actually, there's an audiobook of it which is also one of my favorite audiobooks ever, it's narrated by someone called Ruth Stokesberry and seems like it was on tape first. I can't find it for sale online and someone shared it with me as mp3's a long time ago. Would be happy to share if you want to try it out.

[chestnut_pod]

Oh, absolutely! Yes please, I’d love to try it, and thanks very much.