ARRRRGH

[luzula]

I am getting so tired of the political arguments with my parents. The latest one:

Mom: The Nazis aren't allowed their freedom of speech when people protest against their rally and drown out what they're saying!
Me: *headdesk* Freedom of speech is about being able to say what you want without repression from the state. If people are angry with the Nazis because of their political opinions and drown out what they're saying, I FIND THAT COMPLETELY REASONABLE.

If you are wondering what this is about: Sweden, like many other European countries, has a right-wing semi-fascist party (SD) which is against immigration and which unfortunately has gained a fair amount of votes. The Nazi party is further out on the fringe, obviously. My parents are influenced by SD, which has led to a lot of debate and frustration between us (though as you can see in my previous post, we still manage to socialize fine). But how do you avoid getting entrenched in your separate sides in a debate and not getting anywhere? Any tips? : /

Comments

[jesse_the_k]

In my family, we played Scrabble, talked movies, ate food, gardened .... In other words, avoided politics. When they brought it up I'd respond with a script along the lines of: we have very different thoughts on this topic and I do not want to discuss this anymore. How about those [football teams] [books you read] [plans for the summer] .... ?

Before Randall Munroe had ever drawn "Something is Wrong on the Internet" I'd learned that "my parents ideas about politics are wrong, and I'm not gong to change them."

If you must talk about these items, ask for memories of their grandparents and parents and WW II.

[luzula]

The thing is, my parents were leftist in their youth and up until recently, and in some ways they still are. I just don't see how you go from that to what they're saying now. : ( But yeah, we do socialize fine most of the time by not talking about it, and we even manage to have civil conversations when we do. I guess I just haven't given up hope of changing their minds back again.

[jesse_the_k]

Mine too! My mother got up in front her school assembly and denounced her principal as a Fascist in 1933! My father (more the intellectual type) read Das Kapital that same year! They always taught me to stand for the good and true.

And yet in their later years they would speak of everybody who wasn't them as "the great unwashed"! The racist and sexist shit my father spouted would choke a goat. I moved 1000 miles away for a reason.

The sad truth is it's damn hard to mix family dynamics and politics. I've known just one handful of families who've succeeded.

Do they share your love of the written word? Perhaps you can leave some books with them and hope they make a difference. If they learn, great (and the books are concrete evidence of your love and concern). If they don't, well the books can listen to their ideas and you won't have to.

: (

[baronjanus]

my parents have done something similar and now I wonder if it's age, or the time period. Mine seemed to drift with a more general population swing to the Right, without even noticing the contrast with their previously held views. So did others of my family, including a younger generation. Hmm, curious.

[luzula]

Sorry, missed the comment at first. Hmm, I don't know? Voting statistics in Sweden at least show that young people vote further to the left than older people. I would guess that having more possessions and higher wages (which more older people have than younger people) leads people to vote further to the right? But yeah, probably it's both age and the general climate. There must be research on this. Relatedly, I read that women vote further to the left than men, which I guess could be because women have less power?

I think I've actually gone further left (or I'm to the left in a more thoughtful way, at least) compared to my youth.

[baronjanus]

If you look at recent EU (and local UK) results, there's a scary shift to the right that must include younger people too, judging from the numbers. Brr.

Either we're heading into really stormy seas... or that it's that historical pendulum again, swinging to the right only to swing to the left. At least I'm trying to keep hope and not be too spooked out by the current political climate.

[luzula]

Scary, yeah. I guess my theory is that it's the increasing economic inequality and lack of jobs, though obviously that's not enough to explain it--that's only the fertile ground.

Are you in the UK, btw? I kind of think of fannish people as being American by default, even though I'm not myself.

[baronjanus]

I'm currently in France, and I'm from Israel :)

[luzula]

Ha, that'll teach me to make assumptions. : )

[baronjanus]

I used to feel the same, back in the day, but the internet is a very different place than it used to be :)

[podfic_lover]

I hear you, Luz, but don't have a good answer for you: My father gets more conservative and right-winged by the day and doesn't let any other opinion stand. He develops rather obscure ideas and won't listen to facts and logic. If we (the rest of the family) try to change the subject or leave the room, he follows us and gets louder and meaner.

We try to remind us then that we won't be able to change him anymore: He's nearly 75. We developed a kind of selective hearing when speaking with him and try to stay calm, though longer exposure to him isn't good for my emotional composure.

[luzula]

I had another friend who also said that her father developed weird political ideas in his old age. *sigh*

I dunno, the old saying that people get more conservative as they age is not always true, though? I feel like I've gone the opposite way so far, but then I don't have a family/kids/a house, which I guess are things that can promote that kind of thing.

[frayadjacent]

My mom has in some ways moved slightly to the left in the last 15 or so years -- mainly it was due to the Bush Administration, I think -- but she's still pretty conservative compared to me. In our discussions I try to focus on areas where we already have some agreement and kind of ... gently push the boundary? But pretty gently, because maintaining the relationship is more important than changing this one person's mind, and we're a pretty conflict-avoidant family.

I suppose you could always point out the bad example of the US, where white working- and middle-class people's racism has always been one of the main ways that the ruling class maintains so much wealth and power. They either use people of color as scapegoats or use the carrot of white privilege to keep white people allied with them and against people of color.*

Good luck. :/

*this is a simplification of course, and I think that having token people of color in power has become increasingly important in the post Civil Rights era as a way to keep people of color from revolting like they have in the past.

[luzula]

Interesting analysis of the US; I never thought of it that way (but then it's not my country, so I guess it's not strange that I know less about it).

My mom especially is pretty outspoken, so we're not that conflict-avoidant. But yeah, maybe I should try the "pushing gently" strategy.

[julia-here.livejournal.com]

As my sister says, smile and nod, smile and nod...

My favorite, closest, only 14 years older than me uncle and his wife were John Birch Society and are still, now, prone to far-right political opinions, although since I talked them out of sinking all their savings into silver when the Hunt Brothers were preaching that insanity they've been a bit more discerning in their behavior. We do not talk much politics though.

It's hard to map US politics on Swedish reality, but I had a chuckle about the Nazis and protestors thing- last year there was a skinhead rally at the Washington State Capitol and there were, I think, four Neonazis and three hundred anti-fascist protestors. The skinheads got their permits to set up their amplified speech on the steps of the Capitol building from the Department of General Administration, no problem (this is a scheduling matter and so there's access to the power outlets), and the street in front of that building is a city street, so the protestors didn't need one: free speech all around!

Julia, sometimes I want to say "Anger makes you stupid: pay attention to who keeps making you angry on purpose, because they're trying to take advantage of you" but I suspect it won't work.