Recent reading

[luzula]

I have been to a botanical survey camp and then at the family summer place for a week. Am having a lovely summer so far!

Leeward by Katie Daysh (2023)
Arrgh, this will be a mixed review. Let's take the positive first: I definitely enjoyed the characters, the story structure, and the plot elements. This is an Age of Sail m/m romance set during the Napoleonic Wars which is very slow burn--in fact, it takes a while to even thaw, as the captain and his first lieutenant are at odds from the start, and only gradually learn to trust and understand each other. The romance is subordinate to the plot, which is about Captain Nightingale trying to overcome his trauma, chasing a ship of mutineers, and being tangled up in the machinations of powerful men. All the same, the romance has a satisfying build-up and resolution, with a beautiful scene of love-making at the end (and I'm not using that as a euphemism for sex). (ETA: And I forgot the protagonist's platonic marriage with his wife--they have a lovely relationship!) sanguinity thought this book might have had its origins in Bush/Hornblower slash, but I'm not so sure--I didn't see many similarities in the characters besides it being a captain/lieutenant pairing, with the captain not being in the best of mental health.

I did not, however, much like the writing on the sentence level--it was just generally lack-luster to me, and my favorite fanfiction writers have better prose. And there were two things which distracted me every time they turned up, which was often. One is the casual use of first names: for example, a captain might give an order to an officer using the officer's first name, in front of the hands. And at a court-martial, the verdict is announced to the defendant using the defendant's first name! The second is the overuse of 'shall' as opposed to 'will'. Now, it's very possible that this usage might vary by dialect, and I can't judge that. But it's otherwise written in standard English, and sentences like 'Shall you be all right?' and 'He shall be at the dinner tonight' (not said as an order, just information to a third person that the guy is voluntarily attending) are jarring to me, at least. Is this just me? I am not quite a native speaker, so it's possible my feeling for this is off.

Some statistics: the proportion of shall to will in 'Leeward' is 72% shall and 28% will.
'Pride & Prejudice' has 28% shall to 72% will.
'Hornblower and the Hotspur' by Forester (1962) has 26% shall to 74% will.
'The Heiress' by Molly Greely (2021) has 14% shall to 86% will.

These are three books set in the same time period, but written at different times. The last one is in first person, though, so I should probably have used another example, but it's late and I want to finish this post. Even without checking, I am willing to bet that a non-historical novel written today doesn't have much non-contracted 'shall', and in any case, you can't tell them apart in contractions. My theory is that the author (with some reason) is using 'shall', especially in dialogue, because it sounds old-fashioned, but is overcompensating. The prose does not otherwise have much historical flavor, though.

Comments

[chestnut_pod]

It sounds like you are having a summer with lots of beautiful and interesting nature, the best kind!

Re: shall: the first example sentence definitely sounds off to me. The second sounds fine, appropriately old-fashioned for the setting. 72/28 is just excessive, though!

[philomytha]

Traditionally in English, shall and will have different meanings, though to be extra confusing it’s reversed for first person vs second and third: one is simple future, the other expresses intent in the future. The way I was taught at school to remember this is that ‘I shall drown, you will not save me!’ is an accident, it’s what’s going to happen. ‘I will drown, you shall not save me!’ is a suicide, it’s an expression of intent. It’s not much used like that any more, though.

[isis]

I'm amused by your shall/will ratio assessment!

[sanguinity]

I'm sorry you didn't like the prose better! I shan't way in on shall vs. will, as I have the impression the distinction is subtle, fading, and maybe also different on both sides of the Atlantic? But since you point it out, that 3/4 ratio does seem sus.

And isn't that love-making scene at the end lovely? I confess, I re-read it several times.

Bush/Hornblower slash: less that I thought this book began as such (I don't), but that it rings to me as the author being from that community. The never-acted-upon Nightingale x Leroy relationship in particular reminds me very strongly to me of Hornblower and Bush, plus a number of the narrative choices -- Nightingale's PTSD, his lavender marriage, a few more -- are things I see bandied about in the Hornblower slash community under the rubric of "if I was able to rewrite canon, this is how I'd do it."

[luzula]

Yes, a good summer so far! More nature upcoming, and time with friends.

The shall/will thing was annoying, because once I noticed it, I couldn't stop thinking about it, second-guessing myself, etc, and it detracted from my enjoyment of the story.

[luzula]

Thanks! I never think about shall/will usually when reading a book, it all sounds natural to me, and I read a lot of books from the 18th/19th centuries. So once I started feeling something was off in this one, I couldn't stop thinking about it, second-guessing myself, etc, and it detracted from my enjoyment of the story.

[luzula]

I mean, the raw numbers only say so much--one would really have to look at how it's used in every sentence. But it did strengthen my impression that something was off...

[luzula]

Noticing the shall/will thing (and the first name thing) was like a curse--once I started feeling something was off, I couldn't stop thinking about it, second-guessing myself, etc, and it detracted from my enjoyment of the story.

And isn't that love-making scene at the end lovely?
Yes! Very lovely, and unusual, too. Oh, and I forgot to say in the review how much I enjoyed Nightingale's relationship with his wife! Have added that in.

Bush/Hornblower slash: less that I thought this book began as such (I don't), but that it rings to me as the author being from that community.
Ah, okay, that makes more sense. Yes, Leroy is more like Bush than Courtney is--Courtney is a lot more rebellious than Bush...

[desireearmfeldt]

I was also given this rule of thumb, but my sense from reading 1800s/1900s English books is that either it was more subtle/complicated than that or people at the time weren't especially consistent about it. (There may also be class and/or regional dialect variation.)

And then there seems to be an Irish usage where "will I go with you?" means "do you want me to go with you?" i.e. using "will" where English or even modern-day American usage would have "shall."

[desireearmfeldt]

"He shall be at the dinner tonight" sounds plausible to me but it's a situation where I have no instinct for what the distinction between will and shall would be or whether they're interchangeable.

"Shall you be all right?" -- initially I thought that was wrong wrong wrong, but on reflection I'm not so sure. And indeed when I google the phrase, I get hits from things written in early 20th century, though not necessarily earlier.

[desireearmfeldt]

For what it's worth, google books ngram:

https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=shall%2Cwill&year_start=1750&year_end=1940&corpus=en-2019&smoothing=3

[scribe]

Hmmm the shall/will thing does sound like it would get on my nerves as well, which is a shame, because I do love a slowburn romance + platonic marriage.

[sanguinity]

Oh no! I did notice first names being used more than I expected, but happily I was able to put it aside and take the book on its own terms.

Yes, while Nightingale could plausibly be a rewrite of Hornblower for a modern audience, Courtney doesn't ping me as like Bush at all. Happily, I like him quite well in his own right.

[regshoe]

That shall/will thing makes me think of the scene in The Sea without a Haven where Charlotte is learning English and despairing over trying to understand the distinction :D That does sound annoying, and the first names thing especially jarring.

(Hmm, FotH is 28% shall/72% will, more like the older books... another interesting angle of investigation...)

Anyway, the plot and characters of this book do sound good, even if the prose is disappointing. I'll definitely read it at some point :D

[luzula]

If you extend it to today, you can definitely see 'shall' going down! But again, with contractions you can't tell them apart.

What on earth is causing the spike/dip around 1760??

[garonne]

Arthur Courtney's name is so similar to Archie Kennedy's that at first I was convinced Leeward was going to be a take on Hornblower/Kennedy! That was when I was early in the book and had noticed some of the elements Sanguinity mentioned (Nightingale's PTSD and other personality traits, his marriage) but didn't yet have a handle on Courtney. But in the end it seems the only similarity is the name. (At least, I don't think there's any similarilty, but I don't really know much about how Kennedy is typically portrayed in fic.)

[sanguinity]

I don't read a lot of Kennedy fic, but Courtney doesn't have any of the hallmarks I often see. (Theater backstory, whump and secret trauma, sunshine and teasing, etc.)

ETA: A friend says he gets Kennedy vibes from Leroy Sawyer.

[hyarrowen]

I've seen a few reviews of this one, but the fine-grained analysis of word choice is new. Now I'm caught between two horses as to which is correct, will or shall; but as always I bow to Jabe Austen! As for using first names in professional situations, all I can say is no wonder someone got court-martialled...

But what was the seamanship\fighting at sea like in the book? That might be the deal maker or breaker as far as I'm concerned.

[luzula]

There were really a lot of things to enjoy in the book! And sanguinity got past the language thing, so it's not like my opinion is universal.

[luzula]

Oh, interesting with the shall/will proportion in FotH. Of course, the ratio only says so much, and one would have to analyze the specific usage to get more interesting conclusions.

I do think the romance would be to your taste. : )

[luzula]

Yes, the first name thing was jarring.

But what was the seamanship\fighting at sea like in the book? That might be the deal maker or breaker as far as I'm concerned.
I couldn't say, I'm afraid! I've never written fic in fandoms where I would need to research that sort of thing, so my knowledge is not deep and geeky enough. : ) Ask sanguinity, perhaps?

[garonne]

A friend says he gets Kennedy vibes from Leroy Sawyer.

Oh yes, very true. I didn't see it at first, but now I definitely see what he means.