WTF, Proudhon?

[luzula]

FRTDNEATJ, I was browsing "What Is Property?", by Pierre-Joseph Proudhon, an early 19th century socialist and anarchist (he's the one who said that property is theft). He's in the middle of a passage about equality and how you can only get a society of equals among members of the same species (not between man and animal, or between man and God), and then comes something hidden away in a little footnote:

Between woman and man there may exist love, passion, ties of custom, and the like; but there is no real society. Man and woman are not companions. The difference of the sexes places a barrier between them, like that placed between animals by a difference of race. Consequently, far from advocating what is now called the emancipation of woman, I should incline, rather, if there were no other alternative, to exclude her from society.

*boggles* Yeah, I don't even know what to say. Living in the 19th century is not an excuse--Emma Goldman would KICK his ASS.

Comments

[jesse_the_k]

In fact, she *did* kick his ass, thank you very much.

For a bigger giggle try Clara Zetkin on Lenin on the Woman Question by Engels. Or rather, don't. (I was a flag waving Marxist-Leninist back in the day). She breathlessly describes the thinker under review:

Lenin listened attentively, his body inclined forward slightly, following, without a trace of boredom, impatience or weariness, even incidental matters.

[isis]

o.O

[luzula]

In fact, she *did* kick his ass, thank you very much.

I'd love to think that she literally might have, but he seems to have died before she was born.

Lenin listened attentively, his body inclined forward slightly, following, without a trace of boredom, impatience or weariness, even incidental matters.

Ahaha, her descriptions of Lenin.

Also, I've probably said this before, but I love that icon!

[luzula]

Yeah. *sigh*

[brigantine]

*snort* Spoken by a man who can't get a date. ;)

[luzula]

I suppose that's one theory (if, you know, they had dates back then)...

[jesse_the_k]

But given these folks were all about Making History Dance, I'd say Emma will be remembered with appreciation and a smile. In particular, this attitude:

begin quote I did not believe that a Cause which stood for a beautiful ideal, for anarchism, for release and freedom from conventions and prejudice, should demand the denial of life and joy. quote ends

shall, I hope, outlive, Lenin's martial certainties.

Ta re icon. It turns out to be useful in a wide range of contexts :,)

[luzula]

Emma Goldman = awesome. I've read her autobiography, and I found it fascinating. I first read the Swedish translation, which is abridged, and I was so into it that I was all mad when they skipped parts. I bought the English version in a leftist bookstore in Seattle when I was at Bitching Party, actually, but I haven't read it yet.

[china_shop]

o.O

[sundayscat.livejournal.com]

Nice.

It's baffling. I mean he must have known women (surely he had a mother?). How could he think of them as basically a different species?

Why are/were there so many sexist leftist guys? It's depressing.

[innocentsmith.livejournal.com]

Nice. Especially nice that he just...drops that in a footnote.

I'm sure it was really hard for most men and women to have real companionship when there was so much institutional inequality, and homosocial bonds probably were a lot more comfortable for a lot of people.

Darwin has this bit in The Descent of Man where he pokes at the idea a bit, but then concludes that, since most of the great geniuses of history were men, and only a very few women, women must really be less developed. But I just don't get how it wasn't blazingly clear that it was a nuture issue, and how the fuck were the majority of women supposed to overcome lack of education and systematic denial of their rights? ...But it wasn't clear, apparently.

The fact that history has contained so many awesome, epic ladies despite all they had to overcome really says something.

Mary Wollstonecraft would have drop-kicked this dude, I suspect.

[vsee.livejournal.com]

All I can say is

GOOD GRIEF.

[alltoseek.livejournal.com]

For the same reason there are/were so many sexist rightist guys.

Sexism transcends all characteristics. Isn't that nice? /sarcasm

[sundayscat.livejournal.com]

Yeah. Lovely.

[luzula]

I know, right?

[luzula]

That's what I'm thinking, too--he couldn't have gone his whole life without talking to a woman, could he?

What are you doing these days? Still in the south, or are you up north now?

[luzula]

I'm sure it was really hard for most men and women to have real companionship when there was so much institutional inequality, and homosocial bonds probably were a lot more comfortable for a lot of people.

Yeah, that must be true. OTOH, this was a guy who was deliberately setting out to question the way society worked in his day, so you'd think he'd think about it a little more.

I love all the ass-kicking icons this is bringing out.

[luzula]

Yeah. *sigh*