due South meta: Did Bob take the hush money in the pilot?

[luzula]

I've been discussing this with desireearmfeldt a couple of times, and I'm curious to see what other people think.

My personal head-canon is that Bob did not take the hush-money, and before I discussed it, this wasn't something I'd reflected much over--it was just my spontaneous assumption. Desiree had spontaneously gone in the opposite direction. Anyway, now that I've thought more about it, my reasons for thinking he didn't take the money are:

1) What we see of his character later in the show: we know he bends the rules sometimes, but when we see him doing that, it's not for personal gain (hmm, can you think of any instance?). I just don't see him as putting that much value on money/material gain. And he's a sergeant, it's not like he wouldn't get a decent pay anyway, enough for what he'd need.
2) Gerard absolutely has a motive for faking the evidence, because he wants Fraser to back off and not turn him in.
3) At the end of the pilot, one of the RCMP superiors (Underhill?) says: "There is no record of your father making any withdrawals. None of the deposits were made in person. People will believe what they want to believe. I know what I do." Which I guess means it could easily have been faked?

Of course, it could also be that I don't want to believe Bob took the money because I like him. So, what do you think?

Comments

[alassenya]

I never believed he took the money -- it was part of Gerard's back-up plan just in case the murder attempt went wrong, to make sure that Bob's testimony would be invalidated. I think if Bob had taken the money (even if he told himself that it was for a good cause, like an education fund) it would have eaten away at him like the memory of Victoria ate away at Ben, and we would have seen some evidence of that through the series.

[luzula]

I think if Bob had taken the money (even if he told himself that it was for a good cause, like an education fund) it would have eaten away at him like the memory of Victoria ate away at Ben, and we would have seen some evidence of that through the series.

Yeah, I've thought of that, but OTOH due South is not always good about continuity, so they could've just decided to forget about it. But yes, it is still a good point! I wish we could've seen Ben asking Bob about it, because surely he would?

[alassenya]

I think it might have been a while before Ben had the courage to ask about it. After all he had known and trusted Gerard for a while and that trust was betrayed, so he couldn't risk another betrayal so soon. I think that if he had had any remaining doubts he would have asked his father sometime during "Easy Money", where the dam is again the centre of the story.

[desireearmfeldt]

I've said this to luz in our discussions elsewhere, but I'll say it here:

I agree that character-wise, if Bob had taken the money, we ought to have seen some effect on him. When I was assuming that the intent of the Pilot story was that he had taken the money, I think I was also mostly assuming that the fact that it never came up again and Bob didn't seem bothered by it was a lack-of-continuity issue. As luz says, DS only sort of cares about continuity, and there's often a lack of continuity between a show's pilot and the rest of it.

I'm no longer convinced that the Pilot intended us to believe Bob took the money. But I really *like* the story we get if Bob did take the money -- not that I want Bob to be a bad guy, but it's an interesting thing to have happened and creates a dramatic situation for Benton to deal with. I think it'd be interesting to see him come to terms with it and/or interact with a ghost!Bob who had done it for whatever reasons and had whatever feelings and regrets about it. Though the whole Muldoon thing -- which was made up much later, and wasn't in Pilot!Bob's history, so to speak -- plays more or less that narrative role.

[luzula]

I agree, it could make for an interesting story if he'd taken it. I'd definitely read that (and I'll put it up in my story idea file to see if it sparks anything). Though as you say, thinking that he'd killed Muldoon does play a similar narrative role, and I do think killing Muldoon out of anger/vengeance/grief is a more plausible thing for Bob to do than taking bribes out of greed.

Talking about things that "double up" narratively, it is kind of weird that Bob was betrayed by two of his close associates: Gerard and Muldoon. (And hmm, bghost wrote a story where they'd actually been working together, which makes it less of a coincidence.)

[desireearmfeldt]

Greed does seem an unlikely motivator for Bob (and, he didn't use the money!). So maybe he did it for some more interesting and complicated reason?

[mysticalchild_isis]

I always got the impression from the pilot (and from what we hear of Bob later) that he did not take the money, and it was simply a plot of Gerard's. The Gift of the Wheelman has that line from Fraser about how the only thing a father needs to leave his son is a good example of how a man should live his life, and I can't reconcile that with a Bob that would have taken the money.

[luzula]

*nods* Yeah, that's a good point about that line in Gift of the Wheelman.

[desireearmfeldt]

Of course, that line is already meant to be deeply ironic: the subtext is "there are all kinds of things a father should do/be that Bob failed on, and this is the only thing positive thing about Bob as a father at all, and it's actually part of the cause of his failure at other aspects of fatherhood." :)

But it can only do that job if Benton actually does believe that this is the one thing Bob never failed at, when he says the line.

[luzula]

Heh, yes, good analysis. And he says that after Bob appears to him, so he knows Bob might be listening, right? Hmm.

[green_grrl]

I've always assumed the same as you. First, Bob just doesn't seem the type; it would be wildly out of character. Second, setting up an account without Bob's knowledge is such a classic frame.

[luzula]

*nods* Out of character, yeah.

Second, setting up an account without Bob's knowledge is such a classic frame.

I just don't know enough about crime tropes, but if that's the case, I guess that might also be an indication of it being fake...

[brigantine]

Oh, yeah. Easy peasy. Well, setting up the account initially might be a little dicey, since there's paperwork that requires a signature, unless the account's being set up for a minor (I was a bank teller for a bit in the late '80's), but once the account was set, making dodgy-looking deposits would be simple if the "owner" of the account isn't aware it exists and has a tendency to wander off into the wilds for months at a time. While withdrawals (back then, none of this internet banking stuff) needed to be made in person, deposits into the account could be made by anyone.

The savings account record Gerard showed Ben not only didn't show any withdrawals, it only showed the dodgy deposits. There was no other activity at all that we'd normally see on the average person's account; varying amounts deposited on varying dates, the occasional withdrawal. It looked like an account freshly set up for exactly that one purpose.

ETA: Hmmpf. This was supposed to be a reply to Green_grrl's comment about setting up the account as a frame, but it didn't post that way.

[desireearmfeldt]

If Bob were accepting bribes, you don't think he'd have set up a separate, secret account for that purpose? :)

[brigantine]

I agree it's possible, but it's so obvious, which is why it makes such a great frame-up trick.

If Bob were a big corporation and we were talking about an account in the Caymans, or Switzerland, then yeah, absolutely, but for Bob the Mountie I'm not sure how he'd manage it without drawing attention. I suppose he could open the account claiming he's starting a separate account to save for something else? Benton's college fund? *snerk*

[sage]

Question: How hard would it have been for Gerard to bribe or blackmail a bank teller/officer to set up a simple saving acct back then? I mean, people do skeevy things all the time, and esp in a smalltown branch where someone had a lot to lose if they didn't comply...?

[brigantine]

Welll, lessee, if I were the New Accounts officer back then, and Gerard say, knew where I'd buried the body of that guy who mugged my grandma, then what I would do would be to take the account paperwork home in my briefcase, fill it out, forge - or have Gerard forge, whatever - Bob's name on it, and then slip it back into the bank and enter it into the system. Small chance of getting caught, questions asked, but not very high. People expect to see you working at your desk, puttering around with paperwork, typing on the computer. Pretty easy, really.

[sage]

Awesome! In terms of fic, I mean. (See plausibility of comment below.)

Due South was just so SMART in so many ways, I'd love for this to be the actual subtext of the pilot. I mean, it is cynical and awful, yes, but totally possible, what with how alienated Fraser is from the room full of mourners at his dad's funeral.

[brigantine]

Mind you, that wouldn't hold up to a lot of scrutiny. There'd be a date on the record in the computer that I don't think could be fudged, and there would be the usual security cameras in the bank.

So, if Gerard and his accomplice had to convince law enforcement that Bob had really signed the paperwork, with him insisting that he hadn't... Bob might be able to provide evidence/witnesses that he wasn't in the area on that date, and depending on how thorough the cameras were one might expect him to show up on camera if he'd come into the bank to set up the account himself.

Of course now that he's dead, he's not going to be raising much of a contest, is he. :P

[sage]

Right. That makes sense. Although I suppose there might be ways around it given a) some skulduggery (because who knows if the security tape got changed that day? Assuming the camera even worked) and b) good old Due South handwaving.

I mean, Gerard can approach a bank officer after hours and tell them what they're going to do or else. Or, going in another direction, I wonder what arrangements existed for banking by post for gvt employees stationed in remote areas? Gerard certainly has access to enough examples of Bob's signature (from reports) to have good forgery templates...so if he could pretend to be Bob on the phone, get acct set up forms mailed to him, fill them out as Bob, return them by mail, etc. I mean, things were SO DIFFERENT before internet banking. And the North is so very spread out, bank branches might be hundreds of miles apart.

Gah, now I want to get input from people who know the area first hand! *g*

[brigantine]

...so if he could pretend to be Bob on the phone, get acct set up forms mailed to him, fill them out as Bob, return them by mail, etc.

And Bob might or might not be able to prove that he was nowhere near the address the forms got sent to at or around the date that the bank sent them. He spent so much time on his own. Maybe he was in a certain village for long enough that people there could vouch for him not being in the right place to receive the forms, or maybe he was all by himself up on whatever pass, with no witnesses but the caribou.

Gerard would be in a position to at least hazard an educated guess as to when Bob might be somewhere off by himself. Could be tough for Bob to clear his name thoroughly. Even if the bank account wasn't enough to convict him, there'd always be a cloud - kind of like now. ;)

[sage]

At least Bob gets him in the end.

(*ouch*)

[sage]

Oh, see, I apparently have a totally different thing going on in my head about this.

Gerard: take the money & go along or else I destroy you.
Bob: I can't do that. Also, we were partners, you ass!
Gerard: Haha! You already have! *proffers bank book with a flourish* And...you know you always loved Buck best, you jerk.
Bob: Huh. Well I guess I have, then. And, er, I suppose that's true. Sorry.

Bob: *phones Charlie Underhill* So, Gerard is taking bribes and the hydro utility is doing a supremely evil thing.
Charlie: That's quite a conspiracy. Have any proof?
Bob: Not enough. I'll play the game a little while and see where it leads us.
Charlie: These are some powerful enemies you're making, Bob.
Bob: I'll be careful.

Charlie: *eulogizes Bob while eyeing Gerard and Fraser*
Fraser: I have to solve this.
Charlie: *points Fraser to Gerard's trail*

Fraser: What do you mean I can't come back to Canada?!
Charlie: This is an ugly business we work in. The RCMP has a nasty-ass history, and don't you forget it. Wait til the current storm blows over and we'll see. Or maybe wait until I retire and can't be officially censured.
Fraser: I...guess I'll go back to Chicago?


The thing I'm undecided on is whether Charlie was complicit, too. I could go either way. Maybe he threw Gerard under a bus, or maybe he genuinely had no idea and legit represents the Mountie ideal while Gerard is the evil anti-Mountie of yore, with the awful history of harming aboriginal peoples.

Charlie comes off as SUCH a politician, though, that I'm more inclined to think him complicit. Especially in the way he calls Fraser & son the last of a breed, thus excluding them from all the rest of the Mounties who willingly play the same corrupt game.

[luzula]

Gerard: take the money & go along or else I destroy you.
Bob: I can't do that. Also, we were partners, you ass!
Gerard: Haha! You already have! *proffers bank book with a flourish* And...you know you always loved Buck best, you jerk.
Bob: Huh. Well I guess I have, then. And, er, I suppose that's true. Sorry.

*snorts* This kind of makes Gerard sound like a jilted lover. Hmm, but seriously, I never thought of that angle (setting aside the lover thing)--that there might've been some sort of rivalry among the partners.

Also, what do you mean by Bob saying "Well I guess I have, then"? Do you mean that he plays along in the hopes of later proving that Gerard faked that account, and also to get other evidence against Gerard?

Anyway, it's an interesting idea--I mean, I always thought Gerard used the bribe thing just as a weapon against Benton.

[sage]

Yeah, basically, if someone tries to bribe Bob and Bob sees that it's obviously a significant case (not just someone trying to get out of a speeding ticket), then Bob can legally choose to initially play along as long as he immediately calls a superior and gets their okay. Then, once he has enough evidence, they can call in backup and make an arrest for the whole big conspiracy.


Oh, Gerard totally DOES use the bribe as a weapon against Fraser, and it's incredibly cruel of him, since it's basically only in there to shatter Fraser's illusions about his sainted dead father.

The thing is, Charlie's lines at the end confirm that the account legitimately existed, and I'm trusting his word on that, since it would be easy enough for Fraser to call the bank and confirm it's a real account. (Also, narratively, the camera spends a ton of time on Fraser staring mournfully at the bank book. If it were fake, they would have set that up differently.)


Re their partnership: I apparently have head-canon about this, too? I mean, Gerard goes on and on about Bob, and later Bob goes on and on about the importance of partnership (and no one mentions Gerard again). There could easily be subtext for a partnership that went sour. Maybe they were totally platonic and then Buck's arrival/return and Bob's smitten heart were enough to drive Gerard away? Who knows? There is zero continuity on this in canon, so, *shrug*

:)

[luzula]

Oh, huh, I didn't know that about the legal thing where it's allowed to play along. It does seem to be a plausible thing for Bob to do.

Re their partnership: I apparently have head-canon about this, too? I mean, Gerard goes on and on about Bob, and later Bob goes on and on about the importance of partnership (and no one mentions Gerard again). There could easily be subtext for a partnership that went sour. Maybe they were totally platonic and then Buck's arrival/return and Bob's smitten heart were enough to drive Gerard away? Who knows? There is zero continuity on this in canon, so, *shrug*

Interesting! I do like the "partnership that turns sour" idea--it would add some personal motivations for Gerard's actions. But yeah, zero continuity. In some ways, it's like canon uses Buck, Gerard, and Muldoon interchangeably. Like, Benton says "He [Gerard] was my father's best friend on the force." Which kind of ignores Buck?!? Muldoon isn't portrayed as being quite that close to Bob, but still, canon says they were friends.

Gah, I want to write (and read) moar fic about this, but so far my muse hasn't obliged.

[shayheyred]

I cannot believe Bob would take the money. Due South is in many ways a show in which characters are exactly what they appear to be. Shadows only appear on "good" characters if there's a plot payoff (think about when Fraser does something bad, or dishonest -it's always to right a wrong. His one legal infraction -- the release of Victoria -- eats him up, and he pays for it with a bullet in "Victoria's Secret." Fate is not always kind, but it is fair. Ray V is portrayed as a possibly shady cop in the pilot, but again, it's never for himelf; if he cuts a legal corner (which we really don't ever see proof of) it's to bag the bad guy. Ray K seems to verge on doing those same sorts of things, and I can see him willing to maybe cut his own legal corners or punch a suspect. But both Rays are good guys, and their natures both become significantly more honest once they meet Fraser.

So now we come to Bob. Bob has quirks and weirdness and gaps where normal emotions toward people may be, but he's Fraser's role model. I know - they have a contentious and mutually misunderstanding relationship. But I can't believe that we'd be expected to have Fraser's go to ghost and advisor be a guy who would take a bribe. Some people disappoint Benton Fraser, but we've no real indication that Dad did so, except emotionally.

[luzula]

Hmm, yeah, this is another way of thinking about it, and it does make sense. I mean, I tend to think of characters as if they were actual people, and thinking about their motivations that way. But it does make sense when you analyze the themes of the show this way. I keep coming back to Bob's story about Ellesmere Island (which I love) and which is pretty clearly intended to show Bob as a moral compass, at least as a police officer.

[peoriapeoriawhereart]

I took the account as something Gerard did to make sure if anyone started digging into Bob's death that they would cover up the death's circumstances to make the bribe disappear.

I'm thinking that if the account was set up somewhere (or by mail from somewhere) Bob might have been, Old Mountie is all anyone would remember if they didn't know Bob or Gerard or (Buck), saying anything was done in person.

Of course, with Benton in Chicago, it's much harder for him to do any community policing that might lend to not putting a lake the size of Germany over land too few people care about.

I suspect someone is still very upset that that tribe/village was able to use their stipend to hire lawyers to get them secure in the hunting lands that would keep them viable as opposed to the 'reserve' that would end in them dispersed somewhere else.

(Of course, I have the nasty suspicion that Muldoon killed Caroline so Bob would 'run him off a cliff' as the best alibi of all, death. Just like I think he was 'friends' with Bob figuring that would keep most people tight-lipped about what he was up to, expecting a fix.)

[luzula]

I took the account as something Gerard did to make sure if anyone started digging into Bob's death that they would cover up the death's circumstances to make the bribe disappear.

*nods* Yeah, that sounds plausible. And of course it's an especially effective weapon because those who would care about digging into it are precisely the people who would care about Bob's reputation.

(And the size of Germany? Seriously, show? *rolls eyes*)

Of course, I have the nasty suspicion that Muldoon killed Caroline so Bob would 'run him off a cliff' as the best alibi of all, death.

Hmm. That would seem a very cruel way of faking your death, if that's all you want--I mean, being out in the wilderness a lot, he could easily have faked his death by pretending to meet with an accident. I don't really have a firm opinion of why he did it, but I always thought it must be either personal grievance or that Caroline came across some evidence of what Muldoon was doing.

[lyr]

I always thought he didn't take it, for exactly the reasons you name - but mostly particularly because of reason #3.

[desireearmfeldt]

Not remembering/paying enough attention to #3 is a big part of why I assumed he'd taken the money, and the reason I now tend to agree with luz's interpretation.

But I totally want to read the fic in which Bob did take the money, for interesting reasons, and then has to deal with that fact both when he's alive and when he's dead. It might have to be an AU in other ways, because (as I said over on the DW thread of this conversation), I think he-took-the-money would end up playing the role of Bob's Big Mistake/Wrongdoing, instead of he-tried-to-kill-Muldoon; it would be narratively weird to have both.

[luzula]

Yeah, I do think reason #3 is basically the writers of the pilot telling us "he didn't do it", or at the very least "there are strong doubts about him doing it".

[ride-4ever.livejournal.com]

Well, I have always believed in my heart that Bob didn't take the money, but it also seems to me that the hints-in-canon indicate it was a set-up to be called into play as one more part of the crime AGAINST Bob.

[luzula]

*nods* Yeah, I think that's what they intended us to think, too.