Question about punctuation

[luzula]

Here is a sentence with three variations in the comma placement:

1) It was not yet noon, and though it was October, Keith thought he might reach Ardroy that same day.
2) It was not yet noon and, though it was October, Keith thought he might reach Ardroy that same day.
3) It was not yet noon, and, though it was October, Keith thought he might reach Ardroy that same day.

I feel like 1) is the most common today and the one I would have used before my current fandom. But the 1925 book I'm writing fic for only uses 2) and 3), so that's what I am now using in my fic. I suppose 2) and 3) do make more sense in a way, because if you remove the phrase "though it was October" with its surrounding commas, you still get a sentence that works, which is not the case in the first one if you remove "and though it was October" with its surrounding commas.

My sample here is just one author, but I do wonder whether 2) and 3) are more old-fashioned ways of using commas?

Comments

[james]

See I would have said #2 is the only/most correct way? But I'm old, so maybe that's an argument for #2 being more old-fashioned.

[luzula]

It's possible that I've been completely wrong in using 1) all these years, but if so, I wish a beta had told me at some point! But I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one using it.

And now I'm browsing some recently published books and not finding any of these constructions at all...

[desireearmfeldt]

It is worth knowing that US and UK do not agree on correct/common usage of commas, today. Also that even within the US (and I think this is also true for UK), there are different schools of thought about what's 'correct.'

AND correct/common usage has evolved over time.

AND if you're primarily reading fiction -- and especially fanfic, as opposed to published literature -- there's often some 'incorrect' use of commas deliberately employed to evoke spoken language rather than written language.

[luzula]

Oh, interesting, I didn't know there was a US/UK difference in comma usage.

And yes, obviously it's an evolving thing!

[desireearmfeldt]

I think I preferentially use #2 (though now I'm over thinking it!). But I'm pretty sure my comma usage has drifted from anyone's version of 'correct.'

[nyctanthes]

I also find 2 the easiest to read. Though I'd also consider removing the comma after October.

"It was not yet noon and, though it was October Keith thought he might reach Ardroy that same day."

Not grammatically correct I assume, esp. for a 1925 canon source. But these days I'm using fewer commas and finding the results easier to read. Though I go back and forth about punctuation so much!

[luzula]

Thanks for the input! : ) Hmm, I find your way more difficult to read; I stumble at "October" and "Keith" not being separated by a comma.

[desireearmfeldt]

This is the sort of "lack of comma where I expect it" that I stumble over when reading modern UK English writers. (Hm, I'm not sure whether I've come across this in published writing or only in casual communication & fanfic.)

[lyr]

Grammatically, #3 is correct because it places commas around the extra info you can cut out of the sentence and also before the conjunction. But being grammatically correct is a bit old-fashioned. #1 implies the "and" as being part of the same thought as "though it was October," which I wouldn't; that's a more common construction nowadays, though.

[luzula]

Thanks for the input! : ) And confirming my impression that 1) is a common way to do it...

[hurry_sundown]

Not #1. #3 is probably the most correct, but seems awkward. #2 is what I use.

[luzula]

Thanks for the input! : ) Ha ha, I love that a question about punctuation is what makes everybody comment...

[desireearmfeldt]

And you've got at least one vote for each of the three as 'best'! :)

[mific]

Yeah, my vote's for 2 as well. :)

[luzula]

Interesting! Now that I think about it, I may also be influenced by Swedish punctuation in having used 1).

[snickfic]

Agreeing with others that #3 is the one that's actually correct (two independent clauses separated by a comma, dependent clause also offset by commas) but awkward. As a result, I just try to avoid using this particular construction, haha.

[luzula]

Thanks for the input! I looked in two modern books, and this construction was actually hard to find, so maybe you're not the only one to avoid it.

[melannen]

I might use any of those, or even "It was not yet noon and though it was October, Keith thought he might reach Ardroy that same day" or even "It was not yet noon and though it was October Keith thought he might reach Ardroy that day" especially in a modern fandom.

But I am firmly of the belief that especially in fiction commas are about pace and cadence at least as much as grammar; the POV who says 'It was not yet noon, and, though it was October, Keith thought he might reach Ardroy that day' is much more methodical and thoughtful and unhurried than the one who says 'It was not yet noon and though it was October Keith thought he might reach Ardroy that day.' (Basically, I am much more likely to believe the first one actually will make it to Ardroy that day than the second one.)

[luzula]

Oh, good point! Yes, of course you're right that it's also about style and characterization.

And I think I'm quite affected by writing in a book fandom, where the canon has a definite writing style that I enjoy trying to emulate.

[genarti]

Agreed, and I was going to say much the same! I love commas, but to me their placement is as much about ~vibe~ as about anything grammatical. These examples all work for me, but give slightly different cadences, and thus slightly different feelings. And I agree, too, about the methodical, thoughtful impression given by the most comma-heavy version.

[cathexys]

Yet another with 3 is most correct but 2 reads most smoothly for me.

[luzula]

Interesting! Like china_shop below, I am surprised by how many votes there are for 2).

[antisoppist]

People who proofread me always put more commas in everywhere. I'd be fine with just one after October, but I can see that if you view the commas as separating the clause "though it was October" you might argue for one after "and".

I just asked the kids, who were recently taught this (UK). (I wasn't taught punctuation at all apart from full stops). The 13 year-old says she was taught that there are three types of parentheses, commas, brackets and dashes, so she would put commas round "though it was October" but the 17 year-old says when you read it, you pause after "noon" so you need a comma there. Then the youngest said but three commas would be too many.

We don't know, basically :-)

[luzula]

Well, language is a living thing, I guess there can be more than one right answer. : ) Thanks for the input!

I wonder if I'm also influenced by Swedish in instinctively going for 1)? In Swedish I would've definitely done the equivalent of that.

[cahn]

Ha, am working on this with my 11-year-old (who is not being taught punctuation rules at school *headdesk*)

In (formal) US English rules, you definitely need a comma after "noon" (two independent clauses connected with the coordinating conjunction "and" -- which is still supposed to be taught in Common Core standards in the US!), and I was taught to put commas around "though it was October" because it's a clause that can be taken out from the sentence without incident (as you say). So, #3.

But I feel like in informal writing in the US, the "two independent clauses connected with coordinating conjunction needs a comma" rule has gotten to be unused/very optional -- I don't necessarily use that rule in, say, personal emails and fic, though I'd use it in work emails or work writing.

UK rules are different and I have no idea what those are, except that I think they often involve using fewer commas? :)

[luzula]

But I feel like in informal writing in the US, the "two independent clauses connected with coordinating conjunction needs a comma" rule has gotten to be unused/very optional

It does seem like an excessive rule to me. I mean, in the sentence "The sky is blue and the grass is green." the clauses are so short that I wouldn't put the comma in. But with longer clauses, I'd most often put the comma in.

I didn't know until this post that US and UK rules for commas were different!

[regshoe]

My knowledge of formal punctuation rules is limited, but I get the impression modern writers tend to place commas based less on grammatical rules and more on where you'd pause when speaking.

Anyway, my preference here would be for 2)—1) feels wrong without a comma after 'and', but 3) feels overly fussy putting so many commas close together.

Then, of course, there are plenty of other options—I think it'd be very Broster-appropriate to put em dashes around 'though it was October' instead, or you could get rid of the 'and' and put a semi-colon after 'noon', etc. etc. Isn't language fun :D

[luzula]

Swedish, at least, has definitely gone from having formal rules for commas more towards "just do what feels natural". I notice in my students that comma use overall has gone way down, and they often write what feels like run-on sentences to me.

Actually, here is an example I stumbled on where you use 2), when I was rereading (and much appreciating!) the ballad fic: "'Yes, sometimes,' said the girl, and without explaining this obscure remark, added, 'It's nice to meet you. My name is Peggy.'"
: )

Yes, of course, there are plenty of other options! One could use a completely different construction, too.

[regshoe]

Heh, well spotted :) Nice to know I'm consistent about comma preferences!

[chestnut_pod]

Usually I do use 1, it's true, but I might also use 2 and would think nothing of seeing it. 3 feels very archaic, though; I can't think of the last time I saw modern fiction punctuated like that.

[luzula]

Thanks for the input! Yes, well, my canon is old, and it's historical fiction as well. Ha, I'd never even thought about this punctuation issue before, but once I started thinking about it I had to see what other people thought...

[china_shop]

Hee! This is hilarious to me, because I read your post and thought, "It's obviously #1 that's correct in modern writing (as I learned it)," and I expected all the comments to agree with me, and almost none of them do. *g*

My reasoning:

If you're joining two separate independent sentences, you join them with ", and" (or ", but" or whatever), as in #1. It's true that having the qualifying phrase at the start of the second sentence means that technically you'd get #3, but in modern writing, you never put a comma after an independent-clause-joining conjunction. Having too many commas makes sentences disjointed and choppy (so the theory goes), so the one after "and" gets rationalised away because it's easily inferred.

#2 would be correct if it was: "Keith rose early and, though it was October, thought he might reach Ardroy that same day." That is, if it's all one sentence with an aside.

/everything is regional, and there are fashions, and this is just my deeply held belief that no one else has to agree with ;-)

[luzula]

Like you, I expected most people to go for #1! It's certainly the one I used before.

#2 would be correct if it was: "Keith rose early and, though it was October, thought he might reach Ardroy that same day." That is, if it's all one sentence with an aside.

I had to think a moment before I saw the difference between this sentence and mine! Actually, I wonder if many people would not write "Keith rose early, and though it was October, thought he might reach Ardroy that same day." I would certainly not blink at seeing it if I was reading without thinking about comma placement.

[philomytha]

I like all of them for different purposes. I agree 1 feels the most modern - I think perhaps because modern prose is more casual about starting a clause with 'and' than in the past - 3 the most archaic, 2 probably is my favourite.

[luzula]

Yes--like melannen said above, I suppose it's about style more than what is actually "correct"!

[ceruleancat]

There's different formats to punctuation, not necessarily strictly grammatical, whatever system you choose to use. I agree with the #2, with #3 correct but a bit excessive with commas.
But to test if it's just about intonation, try replacing 'though' with 'although'. To my ears, version 1 doesn't work with 'although', which suggests it shouldn't be right with 'though' either.

[luzula]

Huh, I think of "though" and "although" as having about the same meaning, so for me that doesn't make a difference! It mostly makes a difference in whether a word with one or two syllables fits better into the flow of the sentence.

[seascribble]

3 is the one that's "technically correct," as others have said, and 1 bugs me because you can't take the "and" out. I think the ", and" construction is stupid, so I would probably write 2 because 3 looks clunky.

[luzula]

Noted! I am surprised by the number of votes for 2).

[iberiandoctor]

UK-style person here, and voting for 2, while acknowledging that 3 is the correct one. 1 is the US style, I think, and the most action-y, too, which may be the most IC for your Keith.

[luzula]

There are a lot of North Americans voting for 2), though! More than I thought. Hmm, Keith may be a man of action, but since the author's style leans towards 2) and 3), I'll go with that.