Musings on gender-neutral pronouns

[luzula]

I have so many things on my to-do list and instead I'm writing this post on language, specifically pronouns.

As we all know, English has no universally accepted gender-neutral singular third-person pronoun that can refer to a person (other than the formal "one"). (Neither does Swedish, incidentally. *envies Finnish*) Thus the "he or she", but that gets awkward. I was reminded of this when I browsed the podfic section of the Help Japan Delicious account, and found the following two examples of how to handle this:

Please make sure you have permission from the author before requesting that I record their fic.

Author's permission is required, unless it's a surprise gift for someone, in which case I won't post it publicly without the author's permission after ze receives the podfic.

Which do you prefer for the gender-neutral singular third-person pronoun: "they" or "ze"?

I much prefer "they". Sure, it's technically ungrammatical, since it's a plural pronoun, but it is an already existing gender-neutral third-person pronoun. And it's not the first time English pronouns wander between plural and singular--I mean, "you" was originally just the plural second-person pronoun, but then it took over the function of the singular as well. "Ze", on the other hand, always gives me a bit of a jolt. Also, what about the other cases of it? I mean, for "they" we already have "them", "their", etc. Would we say "the story is zeirs"? Or what about the horrible-sounding "zeself"? (ETA: I've now learned that the cases of "ze" are "hir", "hirself", etc, which does make more sense. And I can see why you might want people to use it to apply to yourself personally, if you're genderqueer. But I still prefer "they" for someone in general when the gender is irrelevant.)

According to Garner's Modern American Usage: "Though the masculine singular personal pronoun may survive awhile longer as a generic term, it will probably be ultimately displaced by they, which is coming to be used alternatively as singular or plural." Interestingly, the book also says that this development has gone furthest in British English, where it is more or less standard by now, but that many Americans resist it.

Somewhat related to this, I'm listening to a series of lectures (on my mp3-player, that is) about the history of the English language. It's so fascinating! And actually much better to listen to than to read, since a lot of it is about pronunciation and how it changes from Old to Middle to Modern English, and so the lecturer can demonstrate the sounds.

Comments

[petra]

I have a friend who's gone by ze (possessive/object: hir) as long as I've known hir, so I'm used to that formation. For "a person who may be of any gender" in general, I prefer "they."

So I'd say "I read Jack's story and told hir it was awesome!" but "Please comment on your Yuletide story so your author knows their work is appreciated."

[luzula]

Oh, interesting! So do you use "ze" specifically for someone who prefers not to identify with any gender, then? I suppose that would make it different in use from a word used to refer to anyone of any gender, like "they". Hmm, this use of "ze" seems not to be universal, though, since the example I found above seems to use it to refer to anyone of any gender.

Do you distinguish in pronunciation between "hir" and "her"? I mean, "fir" and "sir" would rhyme with "her" the way I say them.

[petra]

For people who are genderqueer, I try to use the pronouns they ask for (which is not to say I'm perfect at it, especially if I met them under a different pronoun identification). I've had other friends decide to use "they." Hir does sound like her when some people I know say it, and I know others who pronounce it to rhyme with queer.

[luzula]

Ah, okay. Thanks for explaining! I shouldn't have been so dismissive of "ze", then. Although I still much prefer "they" for people in general when you don't want to specify the gender.

[innocentsmith]

In my geographic region and age group, "they" is very nearly universal: if someone were choosing "he" for generic use, I would assume they were (a) being rather formal, and either (b) significantly older than I am, or (c) making some kind of quasi-political point - "political correctness cannot compare to grammatical correctness! I will hold to classical forms even if it means excluding half the human race!" I see it occasionally in written prose, but almost never hear it spoken. It would sound pretty obnoxious.

"Ze" I've only ever come across on the internet, and though I'm happy to use it if I see someone prefers it, and can see the arguments for it, I do find it counterintuitive. So I don't know.

I do find it interesting that fic fandom, in general, tends to default to "she."

[luzula]

Oh, it's cool that the generic "he" seems to be almost completely gone where you are. See, I get most of my English through reading, and I guess it hangs on longer in written English (and of course, if you're reading older works, that will skew your picture).

I do find it interesting that fic fandom, in general, tends to default to "she."

Hmm, yeah. When I'm writing my recs this month, I instinctively use "she" about the author, and then have to consciously switch it out for something gender-neutral if I'm not actually sure the author is a she.

[isis]

I don't like 'they' but I prefer it. I really dislike 'ze' because it sounds so coined and contrived.

[luzula]

See, I actually like "they"--I don't think it sounds unnatural at all. And there's something about the symmetry of another plural pronoun becoming singular that I like.

Incidentally, in math texts, the convention is to never use the singular first-person pronoun, but always the plural one, even if you're only a single author. So it's "we now apply Lemma 4 and conclude that L is an elliptic operator" or whatever. I think it's to include the reader, since they are (hopefully) following along.

[akamine_chan]

I prefer "they," but after years of being told that it was incorrect, I'm kinda gun-shy about it. /o\

[luzula]

That's a pity. : (

But I can understand people who fight against changes because they find them grating, too. I mean, in Swedish people are adapting the English way of saying "Emma's Cafe" instead of the (correct) Swedish way "Emmas Cafe". This happens often on restaurant signs etc, and I find it horribly grating.

[glitteryv]

*ponders* I don't think I've had many occasions to use gender-neutral pronouns offline/in RL. A lot of my experiences with ze, hir, hirself, etc comes from reading human sexuality books as well as some brief interactions with genderqueer people online.

My preference is to use "they". That said, I'll most definitely go with whatever a genderqueer person would want to be addressed by.

[luzula]

I don't think I've had many occasions to use gender-neutral pronouns offline/in RL.

Really? I think people use them all the time. For example: "One of my students emailed me today, and they asked what date they had to turn in the assignment."

And pronouns for someone who is genderqueer is really a different issue, because there you specifically want a pronoun for someone where neither "he" nor "she" will fit. What I was talking about was the situation for a person in general where the gender is irrelevant--and I was kind of thrown to see "ze" used in that situation.

[jesse_the_k]

There was a creative explosion of gender neutral pronouns in the early 1970s, including "co" (for cooperator) and "per" (for person) and "na" (from a gender-neutral novel called The Cook and the Carpenter.) If you have a free couple hours, Swift and Miller's Handbook of Nonsexist Writing provides an excellent historical perspective on "they" in English, as well as well-focused skewering of the explicit sexist intent of 18th century prescriptivists who attempted to legislate a generic "he".

[luzula]

Oh, interesting! Thanks for the book rec.

[china_shop]

I much prefer "they". Sure, it's technically ungrammatical, since it's a plural pronoun

It's not ungrammatical in New Zealand. Well, some people still think it is, but they're wrong. *g* Singular "they" has been around since Shakespeare, and is completely invisible to most English speakers. :-)

Edited for clarity.

[luzula]

I can't see why anyone would resist it, really! It's such a practical use of the word.

[china_shop]

"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen." (Einstein.)

I think that's why. ;-)

[alltoseek.livejournal.com]

I think the history is that made-up stuff (ze, hir, etc.) rarely infiltrates language to the extent required to become common usage. So I expect "they" will win. Hard to say really.

In writing I work hard at removing the need for pronouns when I don't know the gender. So I might write something like: "Please make sure you have permission from the author before requesting that I record the fic." Or "Please make sure you have permission from the author of the fic before requesting that I record it."

[luzula]

Well, I don't know--there are definitely made-up words that have made it into the language. But you're right, most of them don't.

In writing I work hard at removing the need for pronouns when I don't know the gender.

I do try to avoid "he" and "she" when I don't know the gender, but it seems unnecessary to avoid pronouns altogether, if you can use "they". Of course, if you're writing in a really formal context, you might want to avoid it.

[alltoseek.livejournal.com]

Made-up words that survive are usually for new objects, ideas, etc. Like television or racism. Even then they are built on old word (usually). Or brand names, like Kleenex.

[andeincascade.livejournal.com]

They, absolutely. "Ze" makes me think of someone using a fake French accent. It would always make me giggle.

[luzula]

Yeah, I think "they" sounds entirely natural in the singular. "Ze" gives me a bit of a start, but I can see why someone who's genderqueer would want a specific pronoun for that, and I suppose you'd get used to it in that case. But I see no reason why you'd want to use it in the general case when gender is irrelevant.

[keerawa.livejournal.com]

I use 'they' unless I'm referring to a specific individual for whom neither 'he' nor 'she' would be accurate.

[luzula]

Yeah, those are really two quite different situations. I mean, either you're referring to someone specific who's neither a "he" nor a "she", or you're referring to someone in general where the gender is irrelevant.

[lyr]

Usually, I just try to work my sentences so as to avoid the issue. I do tend to use "they" as gender neutral singular when I talk, but much less so now that I teach grammar. I'm conscious of modelling something that might get my students in trouble if they copy me, see, so I make extra effort to avoid the problem. When I write, I am more likely to use "ze" as a conscious political choice, but it really depends on the audience I'm writing for.

[luzula]

I actually use "they" consciously in writing because I think it's the best solution to the problem, even if some people think it's grammatically wrong. But I can see why you might not want to do that if it could get your students in trouble.